General Discussion

General DiscussionTheory crafting an unbeatable and guaranteed win offlane

Theory crafting an unbeatable and guaranteed win offlane in General Discussion
Murranji

    Enigma and underlord

    Underlord reduces enemy heroes damage, enigma denies creeps and summons more to harass enemy.

    They then have the most unbeatable aoe combo:

    Midnight pulse, pit of malice, firestorm, black hole.

    Something like 5 seconds of duration at level 7 alone. From level 16 it would ensure a 1.8s root plus 4.5s stun plus 1.8 sec root on anyone caught in the aoe.

    Plus a spell that does 5% of hp damage per second, with a spell that does 4% of hp damage per second.

    Underlord can also escape or help initiate from across the map.

    In the late game they bring an army of eidolons buffed by auras and an aura that increases all heroes damage as more enemy creeps and heroes die, plus firestorm damages buildings.

    7 slotted items incl auras include:

    Underlord - greaves, pipe, AC, shivas, force, Atos (plus consumed aghs).

    Enigma - helm of the dominator, blink, bkb, refresher, octarine, BoTs (plus consumed aghs).

    Comments?

    Fpz

      Sounds nice

      ywn

        i used to think about dota this way too when i was 10

        Chairman Mao is Dearest

          i used to think about dota this way too when i was 10

          Murranji

            I'll take that as you think its a good idea.

            smurfs = no balls

              yes i have an idea too, pick pa and just build items and crit everyone ez game

              ETd

                Sounds decent on paper, but:
                Who gets farm priority?
                What is the gameplan when spells are on CD, particularly black hole?
                What’s the fall back if any of the spells whiff?
                By the way, the early game is not as smooth as you’d like. I can see this dual lane getting shat on by jugg, sniper, or bristle, who have their own AoE waveclear spells. Or they could just Ursa and run at you.

                Tu tayta

                  You are theorycrafting like they are both getting farm, but you are also pairing together 2 heroes that need farm to be effective, one of which doesn't provide very strong damage unless he survives a won teamfight and another one who's extremely cooldown dependent.

                  You are also assuming they are going to always land both spells at the same time, or that they will do so when they can close the game.

                  AnŦaiN

                    No its not guaranteed win , and yes its beatable .

                    AnŦaiN

                      They are a harass lane . Im not gonna shove icecream into ur neck . Figure out what beats harass lane . They wont even be able to hit 6 level .

                      low prio master

                        Good lane, i love to see underlord on my safelane and hate on opponents one.
                        Hes a top 5 offlaner in archon-legend for sure.
                        Ez to play, annoying af, strong af, unkillable af.
                        They should buff bristleback to keep up with him.

                        Yami Yugi

                          lol no shit, you don't have to wait for BH for that combo, really

                          Both MnP and FS is Max HP percentage based it's fucking lethal (9.25%/s at both level 7).

                          I would use those spells mainly against committing enemies, and also an area denial, disengagement tools (it depends mainly on the Underlord's PoM to hold the enemies in the MnP).

                          Opposing team will try it's best to not clumping together though, so your other team should be like Spectre/Jugg/DR/Luna/LS/Naga/AM (pos 1) , Meepo/Clinkz/Lina/Razor/SS/TA/Viper/WR (pos 2 ) , lastly pos 5 is as follows: CM/AA/Bane/DW/Disruptor/Grimstroke/Jakiro/KotL/Lion/Magnus/Pudge/SD/SS/Treant/Warlock/WW/WD

                          Edit: Adding Brood to pos 2 list.

                          This comment was edited
                          kuci

                            Lol who max mnp at level 7?

                            Yami Yugi

                              I used to play Enigma with 0-2-4-1 at level 7 long ago, because it's the BH main damage imo.

                              It pierces trough BKB

                              smurfs = no balls

                                why tf would u want pudge pos5? what the fucking hell?

                                SuperMage

                                  What is your plan if they pick silencer? Or even rubick! And the fact that as others mentioned both of these heroes need a lot of farm to be effective!

                                  Hamagregorin

                                    Kotl + PL in a kotl pl meta. <3

                                    A̶𝖘𝖍𝖊𝖘

                                      i used to think about dota this way too when i was 6.

                                      Rubik plus ES beats all other heroes combined rn , as they both got arcanas this yr and at their highest power level.

                                      A̶𝖘𝖍𝖊𝖘

                                        The Magus Cypher :-

                                        Most Magi believed the Puzzle of Perplex to be a mere curiosity. Yet generations of wizards had broken themselves trying to solve it. And even after the Grand Magus thought he finally grasped the crux of its secret, the epiphany of true meaning came only much later—that the knowledge at the heart of Perplex might allow him to alter the very foundations of magic itself. Now, no longer limited to masterful mimicry, Rubick toys with the boundaries of arcane artistry, reshaping the world of magic as he sees fit; always hungry for new preternatural mysteries to unravel and respool, and the undiscovered kingdoms of magic they too might reveal.

                                        Planetfall :-

                                        HE WHO WAS ONE WITH THE SPIRIT OF THIS EARTH HAS NOW MERGED WITH A FRAGMENT FROM ANOTHER WORLD
                                        Flooded with distant memories of a shattered land, Earthshaker has already encountered one interstellar traveler—defeated at great cost—that had sought to eradicate the reborn power of the world awakening inside him, and he senses more dark forces will soon arrive intent on completing the task. For the first time in his life, he feels a longing to look towards the heavens, to somehow understand the apocalyptic end that found his sister earth...and do whatever it takes to avenge her passing.

                                        LucaManny

                                          Bloodseeker

                                          LucaManny

                                            You assuming that enigma have no counter and land a good blackhole everytime which is u can get combo with almost any heroes and thats almost guaranteed kill anyway

                                            ywn

                                              Im not gonna shove icecream into ur neck .

                                              A̶𝖘𝖍𝖊𝖘

                                                x , y heroes are good at lvl 7 guys. Great combo !!!

                                                BSJ. LGD

                                                  Treant+underlord I think

                                                  '96 Neve Campbell

                                                    Just pick jugg lol

                                                    Yami Yugi

                                                      Why not Veno Huskar? :axe_laugh:

                                                      breaking the cycle of hatred

                                                        I used to think this way when im 1k

                                                        Murranji

                                                          Bloodseeker and underlord would not be as good a combo because the dual melee lane makes it harder to lane, plus bloodseeker is way greedier than a pos 4 enigma so you would be splitting farm between the two.

                                                          Plus bloodrite is way less good than midnight pulse to combo with pit of malice because it only does a paltry 200 damage or something - way less than what the hp based midnight pulse does.

                                                          I mean he has a talent which increases it by a whole 75 damage - 75 damage on a hard to hit easily dodged spell with a 12 second cooldown lol. What a joke.

                                                          Krenka

                                                            275 pure dmg + 75 dmg from talent + 25% dmg increase from bloodrage = 612,5 dmg (before reduction)
                                                            It will most certainly be more than midnight pulse provided the person does not stand in it for the full duration or have an astonishing amount of hp. It also silences of course.

                                                            Yami Yugi

                                                              275 pure dmg + 75 dmg from talent + 25% dmg increase from bloodrage = 612,5 dmg (before reduction)

                                                              Does pure damage reduced nowadays?

                                                              It will most certainly be more than midnight pulse provided the person does not stand in it

                                                              provided the person does not stand in it, bloodrite has 0 damage dealt bruh, while MnP at least chop 10.5% from 2 second stepping out of it's AoE, also Pure AND Pierce BKB. Your call?

                                                              Yami Yugi

                                                                or have an astonishing amount of hp. It also silences of course.

                                                                speaking the full duration btw, let's say we are comparing when both skills hits its maximum efficiency :

                                                                Bloodrite + Talent + Bloodrage (Self) + BLoodrage (target) + Kaya & Yasha = 634,375

                                                                Midnight Pulse (12 sec) = 634,375 (1006,944 HP target)

                                                                So as you can see, a mere 1k HP target of MnP has already outdamage Bloodrite with all that aspects, which means a 2k HP target need only half the duration to reach said damage, and one-third duration for 3k HP target (4 seconds) - Unavoidable during first 2 sec except you think it's worth blink out of that.

                                                                Magic thyself out of that

                                                                This comment was edited
                                                                Yami Yugi

                                                                  Still, OP, by All Means, I think there are many better options uch as Jakiro + Mars : both early harass and SS combo, late game scenario, all the better.

                                                                  Metsis

                                                                    There are many combinations that work in this game... Huskar + Spirit Breaker for example, is a deadly combo... Or basically Huskar with any disable is quite powerful.

                                                                    One really nasty combo with Huskar is Witch Doctor... That burning spears damage comboed with Maledict... That hurts like hell and from like lvl 3 on, just Maledict + Cask a hero and Huskar puts a few hits in and the target will die even if it gets away without further damage. And it is again a disable paired with Huskar.

                                                                    Underlord is great though. He sure doesn't get talked about, but he is really good. He is the prototype for the aura offlane hero. He needs some mana regen (wand + vlad's usually enough). And he is the type where you can go all tank mode as he gets really strong if he survives a few enemy hero deaths within the aura. And the earlier you can be aggressive with the hero, the more of that sweet permanent damage you can collect and the easier the game will become as you hit harder and harder. Aghs is really good there too.

                                                                    Enigma on the other hand can work the jungle without an issue... So he should go there if Underlord can gather some farm solo on the offlane. But you really want to underlord with a strong laning hero that can enable you to play aggressive and really tilt the enemy safelane core. Enigma needs levels and he has really long cooldowns on all of his spells. The stun is pretty much the only "spammable" skill he has...

                                                                    It is nice to think of combos like this... Used to play Undying and Venomancer with a friend at one point. Undying ticks off the enemy max hp and those Venomancer DOT abilities really start to hurt when you have 300 max hp... And when you are that low, the zombies from tomb are going to go insane and pile up the damage hard.

                                                                    TheRRogue

                                                                      Easy to be countered plus too reliant on cd. Any team above crusader know how to play against firestorm and midnight pulse.

                                                                      Krenka

                                                                        "Magic thyself out of that"

                                                                        Sure, I can try.
                                                                        First of all, I'm choosing to ignore the fact that we're comparing two spells that are tailored for the hero. It wouldn't work if you were to switch the spells around. MnP would be better in total dmg, which CAN happen in conjunction with BH and pit of Malice. Hitting bloodrite using pit of malice, an Eul's or simply the rupture pretty much makes most casts a hit... With a silence and a 12s cd on lvl 4, compared to a 35s cd from Enigmas MnP, you could easily argue that it would be fair to compare it to two casts. It has utility, it is spammable, it is more tailored to the hero than what I think MnP is to Enigma and the manacost is 40% less on BS.

                                                                        Btw, I do not think a BS / Underlord lane sounds better than Enigma / Underlord, because Enigma can be played as fourth, whereas Underlord or BS needs to be pos 3. In terms of kill potential though, I'd say BS and Underlord will in most cases be more dangerous.

                                                                        Murranji

                                                                          The aim is for the lane to be both strong laning in the early game which they have with a combination of a melee who reduces enemy attack damage and a ranged hero who denies the ranged creep each time and can harass enemy carry/ranged support.

                                                                          Bloodseeker could work with them but only if he was pos 2 mid, and would require them to get aggressive on the safelane so the safelane is at 30-50% hp which is what is necessary for Bloodseeker to get a decent amount of extra attack speed and movespeed (he previously would only need the enemy at 75% to get a third of the buff, now he doesn't get any buff at all at that point.

                                                                          Secondly the aim is to provide an offlane which also helps to provide space in the midgame and lots of control and aoe team fight in the late game, which underlord and enigma both do. This is because the underlord farms up a relatively fast greaves (sub 20 minutes) and the Enigma will farm up a helm of the dominator by 10-12 minutes (a bit later than if he rushed it in the jungle but can still get it at a decent time), plus he can rotate to the jungle and farm creeps once the enemy carry is shut down sufficiently and underlord is farmed enough to lane solo. Then in the late game they of course bring the threat of a 4.5 second aoe stun and two mass aoe HP based damage spells which are the best because they both ignore high armour on agi carries and ignore the total HP of high HP strength heroes.

                                                                          "Any team above crusader know how to play against firestorm and midnight pulse."

                                                                          They just ignore the rules of the game and are able to run out of the pit of malice/black hole I guess.

                                                                          Tu tayta

                                                                            So what's your answer if the enemies decide to skip niceties and go straight for enigma since level 1? I mean...you ARE maxing midnight pulse and Firestorm, which provide damage only with little to no utility in lane, other than area denial (if even that, depending on the hero), so your eidolons will be garbage/extra gold, Underlord's aura will have little impact or even nothing if you are being pressured with magic damage and pit of malice will last 0.9 seconds at most...and you STILL have 2 very farm dependent heroes sharing a lane.

                                                                            MuLLi

                                                                              Treant+Gyro was nice back in dayz

                                                                              Really Treant+any hero was nice back in dayz =D

                                                                              Sad times we live :(

                                                                              Murranji

                                                                                Sample game to prove it:

                                                                                https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/4873976064

                                                                                It was also against an ursa which is a really bad lane match up.

                                                                                He ended up pretty much mostly jungling so we weren’t able to do the lane combo and I got zoned pretty hard by the ursa so my farm was terrible but it meant he got an 8 minute Midas so he was able to get bkb refresher up later which let us win fights as theory crafted.

                                                                                Plus having an early force staff meant I was able to pull off some clutch saves and help secure some kills as well (forcing invoker over a cliff to catch a fleeing sniper for example.

                                                                                If it was a better scaling carry I feel like shutting the carry down more would have been better but it worked out eventually in the end.

                                                                                Invoker cataclysm is also very good with black hole and pit of malice.

                                                                                DC.MASON

                                                                                  Ingredients
                                                                                  2 cups all-purpose flour
                                                                                  1 tbsp. baking powder
                                                                                  ½ tsp. salt
                                                                                  ½ cup granulated sugar
                                                                                  1 cup skim milk, or your preferred milk/milk alternative
                                                                                  1 tsp. vanilla extract
                                                                                  1 large egg
                                                                                  ¼ cup canola or vegetable oil
                                                                                  cooking spray
                                                                                  Instructions
                                                                                  Preheat oven to 400 degrees. Place muffin liners in a muffin tin and spray with cooking spray.
                                                                                  In a large bowl, add the flour, baking powder, and salt. Stir to combine.
                                                                                  In another bowl, add the sugar, milk, vanilla, egg, and oil. Whisk to combine.
                                                                                  Add the wet ingredients to the dry ingredients. Stir until just combined; batter should be lumpy. Do not over mix.
                                                                                  Fill the muffin liners 3/4 of the way up.
                                                                                  Add your favorite muffin flavors/additions (fruit, nuts, chocolate chips, oats, etc.). Take a toothpick and push the additional ingredients down into the batter and swirl them around a little.
                                                                                  Bake for 20 minutes. Let cool for 5 minutes before serving.
                                                                                  Notes
                                                                                  If you are going to use a muffin addition that is not very sweet, like blueberries, it would be a good idea to roll that ingredient around in a little bit of sugar before you add it to the muffin batter.
                                                                                  The baking powder will start to react as soon as the wet ingredients are added to the dry ingredients. So, it's a good idea to have all of your additional ingredients prepared (ie. fruit peeled and chopped) before the batter is made.