I wouldn't put this down to MM.
1. Teams are balanced, visible players 48-50% WR with about 400-450 games each.
2. You were horribly outpicked with no real detection hero or any visible detection on supports.
3. I don't feel that the matchmaking was to blame, more down to picks and "just a bad game"
Losses happen and while it is easy to get upset and blame the MM when you lose .
Take this game, http://dotabuff.com/matches/218104122 it just happens. I guess you could put it down to some item experimentation but at the same time Chaos Knight is unbelievably hard to bring down super late game.
In your case, they could easily get the jump on you with invis in lanes scouting for arrows, swaps, smokes etc. wasn't an easy game and honestly you did well considering but it isn't the MM it is just a bad game. They happen to everyone.
why u checking this about their side only? how u know that teams are balanced since u cant see my teams win/loss ratio(except mine)?. I wouldnt say that we got outpicked. The visible detection would be easy if our supports were buying wards and sentries. None of that happen. Also we have a great way to initiate team fights with 1 trap from me and cents ulti. Or if cent had the brain to farm for a blink dagger, not to mention the initiation Huskar can offer. Bad games happen i agree, but what are the chances to have 4 players that have a bad game in the same time?
Check the first 3 kills. Top lane and especially bot lane when its warded also!
@Havoc im pretty sure u didnt check the replay. If u find normal how they play in their lanes then no further comment.
A Lich with 1 deny, 16 deaths in 35 minutes and mana boots...
Looks like that game was over after about 5 minutes tbh.
gg
(in work so cant watch replay sorry, bet you had a tonne of fun though huh?)
Please check it if u have time and u are in the mood later, it be much appreciated. Hahaha ye! actually i had so much fun i decided to stop playing for the day!
You had an obviously shitty match and now you're asking us to see the replay of your shitty match so we can see for ourselves how shitty it was because apparently seeing the scores isn't enough. Also, you're asking us to give you our opinion on MM based on that one shitty match you played.
k
U dont get it. I ask u to see the match so u can explain to me how players of the SAME MM can play so differently. Radiant as fuck and Dire as how they are supposed to. Thats the only answer i seek nothing more nothing less. Plus if u dont want to watch it or comment or u just want to troll why are u reading this in the first place?
k
You are aware that only valve knows how MM works, right? There's no point in asking here unless you want some vague guesses. Also, don't expect me to take you seriously when you're lazy enough not to type a three letter word.
Yes im aware, and thats what i want vague guesses and opinions so i know what other ppl are thinking. Also the fact that u arent taking me srsly cuz i type like that proves my point. That u are a troll. Go hide in ur cave and gtfo of my post.
Didn't watch the replay. i guess, u stayed vs potm. Lol it is so easy to win TA vs potm solo mid. And why are u moaning? Such games like this happen frequently to me. Dota is full of retarded idiots. who will never undrstand, why they are idiots, cause they are idiots. lol=)
i wasnt against potm, i was against weaver, i told u to watch replay so u see things like 2 enemy ppl going under a ward and chen waiting there with 200hp farming neutrals, to see hard lane cent to go aggressive against riki and potm and get kitted until he dies, to see Lich and Husk bottom laning. Im not complaining all i did is to ask a question that i still didnt get an answer ;) How can ppl under the same MM play so differently.
@Wit i usually play at high MM when i play with friends thing is that how can someone escape normal MM when playing solo if he is getting teammed up with teams like that?
Because it's lowest MM, normal MM, where else game can put them ? :D
// you can't :P
I agree! Imo Dota2 needs more MM categories than those 3 since they all contain a high number of players(except maybe the very high one) also needs better MM scaling and matching teams up
"How can ppl under the same MM play so differently."
Answer: Because match making system takes into acount ur Dota 2 lvl, which u get for both winning or losing. Even retard, who has played 1000 games, and didnt increase his skill, can be directed to ur team. The real skill is not taken into acount by MM system, because it is unable to estimate. There are so many factors including it.
By the way i am playing only "Very high" lvl(as it called in MM system) and the real skill differ so much. There are still retards, who can't even farm creeps properly.
The point is Dota 2 MM is one big random and u will always play with differently skilled players.
@Reflections thanx for the answer m8 but whats ur actual opinion about the current way the MM is? In other words u like it or not?
If they were in a queue with you then they deserved to be there, either you dropped low due to lost match or they went high due to a winstreak.
Losing lanes is something even pro's suffer from to time and honestly looking at skill builds and item buys only lich was really the thorn, the others just had a great number of deaths.
Also keep in mind that lanes can swing wildly out of control and as a TA there isn't a lot of help you can provide at the 9-10 minute mark with limited farm.
My suggestion is just to suck it up and take the loss, I am in no way saying that this was your fault, or that MM isn't flawed, or that your team mates weren't shit but is bitching about it here gonna make you feel any better?
All you will get here is "l2p" "scrub" "some comment about your WR" etc. This is not that place to even bother with the MM complaint as I can bring up about 20 posts in the past that went nowhere. We all know it is flawed so what, suck it up or stop playing. Simple as.
"Im orange in this game, no intention to flame or start griefing. Would be much appreciated if u watch the replay first"
Thats my original post. I dont have a problem with the defeat i suffered. Its not the first and surely it wont be the last. I just felt like i wanted to know what the rest of the community is thinking about situation and games like that cuz im pretty sure, like u also say, that it must happend to everyone at least once. I dont think that talking about it in a possitive manner is a mistake. Simple as.
If you wanted to know how the community feels just scroll through the pages of the forum. Plenty of people there.
Like me posting "I don't want sympathy but just wanted to let you know my best friend died"
You are basically goading people to either take a slash at you or at the D2 gaming system and there have been enough fruitless posts on this subject.
Im not spending much time on forums, id like to comment on something that actually happend to me and not other ppl. U dont have to slash at me or the D2 gaming system. U can simply state ur opinion or ignore my post lol, i didnt force anyone to read it or even answer it
I don't like it, but I am not blaming Valve for it. As i said, skill/brain/experience is unable to estimate. The system is very loyal to low skill players. I am talking about my own interest. I consider myself as a high skill pub player, but the MM is more oriented to low skill and mid players.
One point i would like to make here is that although the players who's stats we can see in that game all have around 4-500 games and similar win rates that doesn't tell the whole story.
Not even taking into account smurf accounts, one guy could be 450 wins in dota 2 but he's played dota 1 a hundred million times or 10 thousand hundred million games of lol or hon, all of which will help. Now me, my record of 268/274 is my only experience of moba games ever, didn't read any guides or have a freakin clue for a long time. (Most would say I still don't, me included)
The guy with 400 dota 2 games AND 2000 dota games will be a better player than someone who's found moba games for the first time in dota but has 500 games, probably.
When you take into account:
a) smurf accounts
b) previous experience in similar games
c) an individual's seriousness of play
d) alcohol/drug taking
e) stacks of various skilled players
f) hero selections
g) personal difference in ability with differing heroes
Matchmaking a balanced game is damn well impossible a lot of the time, don't blame Valve, blame human nature.
Low skilled players might face problems when playing against invis orientated heroes like riki/weaver
So u lost
http://www.playdota.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1343525
OP made a thread on PD guise, show him support there as well plz.
Want my honest opinion.
The MM is broken primarily because of smurf accounts. There is no longer a way to quantify skill vs levels vs W/L ratio.
Level 100 = 600 wins at about 50-55WR
Level 10 = 70 wins with 95% WR
How do you quantify the human abuse, there is no viable way and its not just "that won't make a difference". There are literally thousands of abuse accounts where it is making the credibility of the systems quite eschew.
If everyone kept to just one account then you would be in games with people of your almost exact skill, exact level, exact winrate but thats not the case. The matchmaking was actually great when this all began but then gradually got worse when both dotabuff and dota2 brought in a stats rating. No on can resist.
Take a look at the top players on any of the heroes or wr or whatever, only a few of those are credible and most are due to heavy stacking (which as discussed in loads of forums was the way to go). Most smurfs stack and play till they get to 200 games, check dotabuff. Not at the top? Then stop and start again.
This is the history of most gaming, people find bugs or a way to abuse it then the community jumps up in arms at the people who made the game saying it is broken and needs to be fixed. The MM was totally fair till people caught on to the smurf way, I have been sat in a skype call with a guy who made 3 accounts in one afternoon just cause he lost a game or two in the queue.
I will have a look at replay when i am back from work, but really what do you want me to say or anyone to say. That your team were noobs?
Your team were noobs. Happy now?
Totally agree with Monkeh & Reflections. Just deal with it people its still a fun game in spite of the flaws.
Havoc m8 now u speaking properly. I agree with u completely, hope u watched the replay by now. Im not expecting from u guys to say that my team were noobs i know that already. I just want Valve to add another category for players in MM. Noobs-Normal-High-Very High that would work way better
Do you really wish for complex explanation? Sigh... fine.
First of all you need to understand how the matchmaking works. Everything is obviously just speculation, because Valve never gave away exact formulas, but some things are obvious.
1. The 3 brackets (normal, high, very high) are just estimation, THERE IS hidden, contionous rating, which is a NUMBER.
2. It's safe to assume that you get rating points for winning, and you lose them when you are losing.
3. Unfortunately, system is also trying to put players with the similar amount of games together.
You ask why do players with SAME MM play so differenly. Answer is simple - because you don't play with players with SAME MM. If you have let's say 1000 rating (every number here is just an example), you may end up playing with people with 700 - 1300. The longer the waiting period for game is, the higher possible skill difference may occur. Next thing that needs to be taken into the consideration are stacks. If some '600 guy and '1300 guy queque together, their rating will be averaged (+ there will be some value added, to compensate for people playing together usually being more effective). So, to sum up, you may finish playing with people with completely different rating.
And that rating isn't accurate. It can't be.
Why? Because unless you are "Somehow-close-to-semi-competetive" player you're going to have win ratio close to 50% (well, you may also stack and tryhard). Because you lack actual ability to somehow change the course of the game. No matter if you are "Well,-I-know-some-heroes-and-their-skills" guy, "I-like playing-pudge-and-sometimes-I'm-stoned" guy, or "I've-been-playing-that-game-for-5-years-but-I-still-pick-hero-which-looks-good-and-I'm-actually-not-even-trying-to-couterpick-or-fit-to-rest-of-the-team" player. You are simply going to win some games (when your team plays and picks better), and you are going to lose some. Even if the teams are quite balanced, you are still going to lose half of the games. That's just how the complexity of the game works.
So how can system possibly find a difference between two players with same 50% win ratio and similar amount of games? It can not, because of point #2. Well, it's trying, but it's not by any means accurate.
While your overall win ratio in longer period is close to 50%, winning games is quite random and everchanging in short periods, often resulting in winning or losing streaks. That's just how probability works. So some players will have higher rating than they should, and some will have lower.
Add to this all of previously mentioned things like smurf accounts, trolls and intoxication. And since everything is so random, games are usually one sided. This results in win ratios even closer to 50%. Why? That's how probability works. You just win or lose some part of the games, without having anything to say. Only some part of them is somehow balanced, where your pick and skill really matters.
Welcome to matchmaking, where chaos reigns.
(either stack hard, go pro, or deal with hell)
FelStyle, a thing you leave out about "why do people with the same MM play so differently" is also the huge possibility of:
1.) It could be a hero they just stink at, so they gained their MM using other heroes. I have experienced in some of my games the worse _____(pudge, qop, etc.) by some player. He played like a straight newbie. But the next queue up, he would show up again and play competently, achieving a great score (10-2, etc.).
2.) People can let others play on their accounts. (Low MM plays on higher MM account)
3.) The person's mood: drugs, stress, worries, texting while playing, whatever. They can just get distracted or have various levels of care for the game.
And your point is true as well: not all players in a game have the same MM. This is proven simply by the fact that someone with low MM can party up with someone with high MM.
I loved the complex explanation and thanx for ur time writing all this. Even after all that i still believe that the mm system its flawed and it doesnt help players who like to play "solo" or team up with one or two friends every now and then. Players like me who dont have the actual time to burn out playing dota even if id like to. Also im playing like that from dota1 and i was using dotaleagues system for my games, and i never encountered players like the game i just uploaded here. U ll say deal with it and ok it happens, but if u really think about it im not asking for teamm8s like Dendi or Puppey im just asking for teamm8s who will do the basics but properly
"Add to this all of previously mentioned things like smurf accounts, trolls and intoxication"
Different hero performaces, moods, etc were already mentioned, so I didn't elaborate. Also, I don't think that's the main issue, but it clearly amplifies the chaos.
Yeah, system is flawed. I just gave reasons why. Also, I have no idea how Valve could make a better system, they already did quite a good job, considering complication of the problem.
4 categories of players low-normal-high -very high would help a lot imho, and it would be a good start, now what would take it to the next lvl would be if u were able to see the rating of the 9 players u are queued up with and have a small amount of time to withdraw from the queue or stay. Even if u again find noobs then at least it was ur own choice.
christ... he has already told you that the brackets by which the replays are sorted are not used to actually match players, so adding another bracket doesn't help anyone to get better games
and if you can't dominate the majority of your presumably low level games with TA when you get mid, then you're never going to have a decent rating and you don't deserve one
a decently talented dota player is likely to get into very high in <10 games (and that's slow ) even if he plays alone and even then you're not getting matched with good players
and no matter how high your rating is, when you solo queue you are going to be matched with and against retards in most of your games
doesn't necessarily mean that they are bad players though
Dominate games with TA? First of all i dont play only TA. I dont play all pick only, i play in high and normal MM, and u didnt get what i just said. Doubt that u even read all the previous comments before u post ur bullshit. Also like i said before i dont care about very high i care for teamm8s that will do the basics and in that game there were none. Cheers
you have some serious comprehension problems man, but it's fine i see this isn't going anywhere as you don't even understand the implications of what you actually want yourself
so you want competent teammates while having a relatively low rating
do you understand that a low rating means that you'll get the lower end of players skill wise?
and when i speak about low level games i mean normal, high and at least the lower end of very high bracket Matchmaking
luckily you dont actually need competent assistance to win the majority of those games, especially not with a ta mid
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Im orange in this game, no intention to flame or start griefing. Would be much appreciated if u watch the replay first
http://dotabuff.com/matches/218391814