General DiscussionDiscussion: Support stealing hard carry farm early game

I do it all the time I need the farm more at least I can last hit

and this is why you have <50% win even with stacks

do you really think it helps the carry if you take the few lasthits he can get? (even the biggest retards get items someday, well.... atleast they try)

i even try to help and sacrifice myself (mostly) for the biggest retards, just because i bellive they'll carry the game at the end

@ dark i wasnt talking to you, you aren't that important dont worry

Sometimes, you really need few last hits ( lets say for wards, smoke, dust, tp-s ) and boots ( that shit need to be nerfed, too much money). And if you play in stack, you can easily ask teammate for lets say 2-3 cs, so you can get items to gank that mid ( smoke ), reveal offline gondar ( dust, sentry ) or most important, protect carry from incoming ganks ( wards ) . So yea, take 1-2 cs from time to time, but not spam skills to farm.

@ Black magic

I get that flaming the poster on the internet is standard operating procedures but I was trying to have a discussion.

It happens stack or solo. Yes if I'm in a stack I ask. If not, and I'm solo I just don't care. To answer your question I'm not sure what "few" last hits he can get. If I've seen him get a handful of last hits in 5 minutes I'm not really confident he can click the creep and hit "S" until the creeps health is low enough so he can strike it. If you want to call me a retard fine, but read my original question. Sorry I thought I'd answer your insult with the same level of intelligence you provided me.

@ .Storm

Yes I have been running into that I sit back, I really want to upgrade the courier @ 3 min, or I want to buy wards, I want that mek or other support gear, and haven't been achieving it lately.

Still the question stands, when do I start taking my carry's last hits in my lane early game? 5 min? 10 min? dont do it?

hey OP
in your MMR, carries miss LH even in a free lane. i honestly think it's fine to get some of your "carry"s cs in the first couple minutes so that you can pick up boots/wards/etc to move around and create space for your carry, which will be infinitely more useful than a couple LH early game.

If your carry doesn't know how to carry then you just do what you can despite their stupidity.
Get the last hits if they really suck.

Or if the enemy is harassing hard and your carry can't last hit, get as many as you can.
Or if you play a semi-carry support get about 1/3 of the lats hits.

After you or your carry hit lvl 6 you can take more last hits, depending on the hero.

The most obvious answer for your question, is i really don't know. It all depends on what lane you are, with who you are, and against who you are. Look it this way, if your carry can't take some cs ( going to side shop, using salve, clarity , etc ) you go ahead. It can be on 1min, on 5-th or 25-th minute :)

Or you can stack and double pull creeps, if you'r enemy in lane , aren't aggressive.

@ All

Let me just restate, If I can make the judgement call he can get that ez last hit, I won't outright rob him. Its those ones early that I see where he is auto attacking the creep, I see 3 other creeps hitting that one creep, and his attack speed or range will not get him that last hit so I take it. I have pretty good timing/dmg in my head of what creeps do to creeps so I tend to snag when I am confident there is going to be a "wiff".

@ Cath

My thoughts exactly. I like playing hard carry, but I tend to support more in Solo MMR due to most of the time no one selects a support/nuker or if they do they don't go on courier/ward duty. I feel a quick arcane boots so my "carry" can spam out another spell or a medallion of courage so his right click happy ass can smack the creeps a bit harder to guarantee that last hit is there.

@ Ninj_a

Yeah I feel gold lost due to a creep last hitting them, is a waste is what I'm getting at.

Point on Enemy harassing hard, I usually get a ranged support, so last hitting if the pressure is on, and I have a melee carry yeah I'll snag those as much as I can to:
A. Ensure my "carry" doesn't dive for the last hit since I snagged it, and absorb a bunch of damage from the opp. team heros.
B. Make sure the gold isn't wasted!

Point # 2, yeah i usually pull away on average (if supporting in a team match) around 20/25 last hits in 10 minutes. Since creeps are about 82 per lane in 10 minutes (including 2 siege unit) I'm hitting around there. Thanks for the input.

@ .Storm

Yep pulling a creep wave is pretty standard BUT what I hate about it is I'm afraid that I will leave him all alone and he'll die because he's diving too far and needs a bit of heal/stun to assist his get away if I pull creeps. Tough calls some days.

1 troll and 4 real honest answers. Nice work keep it up!

u dont take any farm he can get
on the other hand u take every creep he's not capable of! like out of range when the creep is going to die

Then fuck him, change lane. No but seriously, if you do everything good, and you see that you are with some douche, nab ( God i hate that word, we were all noobs in some part of game ), just let him, and go roam. There is nothing you can do when player which you suport goes out of control ( and when they rage, oh )

start making fun of their free farm last hit misses. really pisses them off. But seriously they shouldn't miss more than 3-4 per wave with free farm. I would only take 2-3 at most from carries. I do understand some people with 50% hit rate as carry. But honestly u shouldn't contest if you are creep stacking, then pulling.

I think the term stealing isn't the right word. What you're doing is following up if your carry is gonna miss. As long as you are starting your auto well before they are and it's apparent you aren't trying to complete last hitting with him, I don't see a problem with this. Especially if he isn't auto canceling to time the last hit. I could see if he is canceling to last hit you could disrupt him, but I'm guessing that's not the case.

@ Muted, wp spam = you suck...

Yep done. Get yelled at even though on the second part of your "creep is going to die" even if he's standing next to it and I know his next hit will "whiff" I will snag it with a spell or last hit.

@ Purge (I don't know what your real name is but that damn dog picture is everywhere and you change your name all the time! :)

Well..... After 3 games in a row of the "wiff" I would do things over the mic like "hey batta batta batta SWING batta" then say "big WIFFA" or "you couldn't last hit if you had divine rapier starting off". I'm not proud of making fun of this unfortunate soul but it did happen after my rage meter went into the red.

Yes they "shouldn't miss more than 3-4 per wave with free farm, but my example, I've harassed an enemy hero out of lane, so my carry has all the time in the world to last hit uncontested. Instead, he hits too early, which makes the creeps smoke the other creep, or he lets the health get too low then whiffs. I start taking this into consideration 5 min in and slur him with my big whiffa jokes and start snagging the farm.

Nah I will not contest if I'm creep stacking and pulling because If I'm doing that, then the wave is pushed too far into enemy tower and then the enemy wave is too far for me to contest while snagging ez kills at the ez stacked camp.

So far I am hearing:
1. Yes snag if he's consistently whiffing
2. Pull/stack creeps (check! I <3 to pull creeps and deny XP)
3. Leave lane post lvl 6 because this guy smells at last hitting. (I need to rotate out of lane more with tp scroll if I am smelling a strong odor of stinky hairy carry in my lane)

@ frostychee

No I am seeing a lack of the right click and "S" to stop attack animation to ensure the last hit and you are correct. If I saw more of this try hard attitude I wouldn't have to look back at my lane seeing him "whiff" and like a bad scary movie yelling out "don't go in that door the axe murderer is there!" But no use. Death by whiff! Its like cigarettes, they won't kill you today but it'll kill you later! Same with whiffing those last hits! :O

steal as much as possible cs from ur carry its basic knowledge

Worst idea ever.

Tell your carry beforehand that you'll take a few cs for the wards and shit. If he yells at you, yell to him if he likes his hero alive, don't let him answer and follow it by "then let me take those few creeps so you can get vision to not get your ass ganked". If he doesn't, then say "thanks".

If your carry is struggling to get cs, you can actually help him. Try to hit the creep in such a way that the supposed missed hit from your useless carry player actually makes him get the creep. Get them low enough for him to need a single hit to kill it. It's kinda difficult, but possible and something I do from time to time when my carry sucks that much.

I have to say this is one of my biggest pet peeves and is usually followed by "We need wards".

Some carries have pretty low starting dmg and weird animations, the guy may just need to adjust for a couple waves. I have a tough time last hitting on razor for the first few waves.

@ Zano

Actually it worked last night when I asked if I can take a few last hits. The difference was he could actually last hit ;)

@ Bob

Yeah.... Agreed very big pet peeve here too

@ Let the wookie win:

Yes I agree a lot of heros have an odd attack animation like Razor. My point for the quelling blade (not as useful on a ranged hero) but if a crutch is needed that seems to be the starting item to assist in the wiff area.

i do it if the carry seem to be a moron

if he picks any of the following just do it anyway the entire time.
-bs
-riki
-alch
-antimage
-drow
-sniper

I was AA and my carry was Tiny. I saw him spec Toss as his first spell and his only starting item was a glove of haste. Your damn right I was stealing his farm. If he'd spec'd Avalanche first and got a shield, couple of branches, tango then I would have let him last hit coz i'd know he was competent.

tl;dr If your carry is a moron, steal his farm coz he sure ain't gonna win this round for you.

5 minutes in and they dont have any items? so the f*** wat? spectre/naga needs atleast 13 minutes to get her relic if she is freefarming, 15+ if she is contested in lane, morphling needs to buy either one of linken's components or an early ethereal blade , and tell me how the hell can morphling farm 3300 gold in 5 minutes? FV needs so much farm till he gets that battlefury/midas, same with andy mage. medusa, lone druid, terrorblade. all need shit tons of farm until they come online and then u say 5 minutes in no items? it looks like your the noob, not the carry
now if the carry ur babysitting has 10 cs in 10 minutes with f*** chaos knight then by all means take his farm :P

My point was give it a couple mins, after a few levels their stats will be up, possibly abilities to help last hit and it won't be an issue. I usually spec luna's lunar blessing with my second and third points to make last hitting a breeze (never have issue with her animation anyway) and a point in nethertoxin on viper as an example. Razor starts with crappy dmg and weird animation so it sometimes takes some levels to do more dmg.

@ Sephirosy

The situation was:

I pushed the enemy heros back, providing safe farming for my carry. They kept missing over and over again past 10 minutes of safe farming.

Yes I realize that some people need higher dollar items, but if this just isn't happening after 10 min. I just figure its time to cut my losses with the hard carry. No I'm not making an excuse for all supports to steal farm, i'm just making a case to not waste gold that would not be scooped up by an enemy creep being killed by your creeps. Thats it.

@ Wave

Well.... yes? Always short and insightful as usual :D

@ Let the Wookie Win

Agreed on those heros. I seem to get all of those heros always go mid (Minus viper) I can't remember seeing a side lane razor/luna in a while. Would like to see more of that side lane though.

Why dont put in this way ~ let support hero farm 12~15 minute more money than carry hero .

1. Early support hero will esay farm item , because support item is cheaper than carry item !!
2. Support hero will esay disable , strong backup, more vision (observer ward , dust) and esay gank.

Example: 1. Lion early dagger.
2. Dazzle early mekansm.
3. Vengeful early force staff.

3. Supporter hero will more protection or esay counter enemy. (esay disturb people , supporter become annoying hero in early game or middle game)
4. Supporter got item will not esay kill by enemy. (will not esay ''feeder '')
5. Carry hero will get a lot assit money or has kill by carry hero.

Why i prefer is supporter hero shall farm , no need babysit carry. Strong carry will farm by he self.
So why carry need a strong supporter.... ( Protect , Ganker , Vision , Disable )

And i m the one farming support hero in early... that is work , u may try this ...

Of course support must be strong player too ~

thank & good lucky

NECRO

I help in the denies. If they're auto-attacking, I tell them not to auto attack. If I need a last hit for the wards, I ask for it. But generally, as a support, I never take the last hits from my carries.

I guess in your situation, you can but only if they're actually pushing the lane. If the equilibrium is there, he'll eventually find that 'sweet spot' in last hitting (so long as they don't auto attack). If you place your carry at an extreme disadvantage early into the game, then you're just asking to lose.

Edit: Also I agree with what Zano said

I find every bit of farm the carry can get is important.
Left aside the fact that some are really bad at last hitting.

If you begin taking what little he can manage to take then the game is not going to be looking good.
sometimes you might be able to pull it off depending who you are facing but still its generally a bad idea.

Still, what i might find """decent""" is take the farm you are 100% sure he cant get, like a far creep that is about to die but he is already killing another one the very same second ( sometimes happens).